[08:09:36:PM] mapkeyDX: okay. important characters: guy, wife, doc
[08:09:58:PM] mapkeyDX: wife is wife of guy, doc is brain researcher doing perception work, friend of guy
[08:10:11:PM] mapkeyDX: I'm too lazy to give them names, and it's not important
[08:10:16:PM] mapkeyDX: important facts:
[08:10:33:PM] mapkeyDX: guy doesn't smile anymore after this experience he had that you'll hear about
[08:10:34:PM] mapkeyDX: and
[08:10:50:PM] mapkeyDX: wife makes mexican food every wednesday for dinner
[08:11:10:PM] mapkeyDX: so, here goes ( btw, I'm being terse like this to shorten it ;) )
[08:11:14:PM] mapkeyDX: here goes:
[08:12:35:PM] mapkeyDX: guy gets call at home one day from doc, who he's friends with. doc asks him to come into office, try out new experiement. guy says okay. drives down to office. doc leads guy into room w/ table. guy lays down. doc puts electrodes on guys head - erm, little circle things with wires is what I mean... whatever they're called
[08:13:05:PM] mapkeyDX: non-invasive. not insead head, just outside on forhead. guy lays down, looks at clock, sees it's 4PM. doc leaves.. soon lights go out
[08:13:41:PM] mapkeyDX: guy laying there. sees nothing. then starts to see all kinds of pleasant stuff. looks like he's seeing vibrant sunrise, moving along hills, hears beethoven's 6th in background
[08:15:05:PM] mapkeyDX: this was the simulation doc wanted to show him, btw. finally it stops, light comes back on, doc comes back in, electrodes off and such. guy felt like it was 5 minutes, maybe. looks at clock, sees it was actually 1 hour. doc says that they know nothing about the subjectivity of time, still a mystery to them
[08:15:58:PM] mapkeyDX: guy leaves, goes back home. sits down, watches news. there was a train wreck. sees that footage. has dinner - it's wednesday, they have mexican food.... then, the rest of his stupid day happens, sleep and stuff.... onto next day
[08:16:56:PM] mapkeyDX: next day, guy gets 'nother call from doc, asking him to come back in for another experiment. he does so. same procedure, same experience, still feels like maybe 5 minutes, was really an hour. doc just shrugs it off when he says this. guy goes home again
[08:17:30:PM] mapkeyDX: sits down to watch tv. sees train wreck footage again. thinks nothing of this, afterall, the news would show such a story for many days
[08:17:45:PM] mapkeyDX: wife says that doc called while guy was out
[08:17:50:PM] mapkeyDX: guy asks what he wanted
[08:18:01:PM] mapkeyDX: wife says he wanted to know what they were having for dinner
[08:18:13:PM] mapkeyDX: guy asks, what ARE they having for dinner?
[08:18:24:PM] mapkeyDX: wife comes in, stands in front of him with tray of mexican food
[08:18:35:PM] mapkeyDX: says, what do you mean? it's wednesday
[08:18:36:PM] mapkeyDX: !
[08:18:51:PM] mapkeyDX: ... and after that, the guy never smiled again.
[08:18:54:PM] mapkeyDX: why?
[08:18:56:PM] mapkeyDX: ( the end )
[08:19:05:PM] AgentIlluminati: hmmmmz'
[08:19:24:PM] mapkeyDX: the teach told us this story, then asked that question, then left the room ^^
[08:19:36:PM] mapkeyDX: made us discuss, then came back in in a bit
[08:19:39:PM] mapkeyDX: and explained
[08:19:59:PM] mapkeyDX: wanna try to figure it out? or can I tell you?
[08:20:39:PM] mapkeyDX: .......?
[08:21:16:PM] AgentIlluminati: uh...i tired, tell me
[08:21:31:PM] mapkeyDX: ah, damn.. being tired and hearing stories isn't fun.......
[08:21:38:PM] mapkeyDX: oh well, I'll explain
[08:21:56:PM] mapkeyDX: see, the guy only, really, ever went onto and got off of the table once
[08:22:11:PM] mapkeyDX: but he thinks he did ( at first he thinks this ) twice
[08:22:27:PM] mapkeyDX: he thinks he got on once, went home, and came back again
[08:22:36:PM] mapkeyDX: got on a second time, then went home
[08:23:05:PM] mapkeyDX: when what really happened, was he got on, what the experience thing, but when he thought he got off, it was actually still a simulation running.....
[08:23:12:PM] mapkeyDX: the rest of his day was part of the simulation too
[08:23:29:PM] mapkeyDX: and the next day, up through coming back the second time, was all really a simulation
[08:23:49:PM] mapkeyDX: when he got off the "second time", it was really the first, because that's when the simulation actually stopped running
[08:24:09:PM] AgentIlluminati: yea thats what I figured, but what does that have to do with never smiling again?
[08:24:09:PM] mapkeyDX: so, the "second time" he really went home
[08:24:15:PM] mapkeyDX: BUT
[08:24:35:PM] mapkeyDX: since he thinks he got off the first time
[08:24:45:PM] mapkeyDX: how can he be sure he got off the second time?
[08:25:03:PM] AgentIlluminati: ahhhh
[08:25:11:PM] mapkeyDX: therefore, he's become acutely aware of this problem of "is any of this real?
[08:25:38:PM] mapkeyDX: and, if it's not real, what's the use in liviing it? that is, how can you enjoy living something that may not even be meaningful
[08:26:13:PM] AgentIlluminati: hmm
[08:26:15:PM] mapkeyDX: so he never smiles, because he's plagued by the problem of conscious experience  vs reality
[08:26:21:PM] AgentIlluminati: brb
[08:26:25:PM] mapkeyDX: he may still be in the program
[08:26:26:PM] mapkeyDX: k
[08:29:13:PM] AgentIlluminati: forth
[08:29:16:PM] mapkeyDX: hey
[08:29:37:PM] mapkeyDX: so.... it's the obvious matrix question... "is 'the matrix' really the sub-matrix?"
[08:29:56:PM] AgentIlluminati: yea
[08:30:03:PM] mapkeyDX: that is, the question is obivious to ask.....
[08:30:09:PM] mapkeyDX: ... the answer is not obvious
[08:30:20:PM] mapkeyDX: NOW
[08:30:27:PM] mapkeyDX: what does this have to do with suicide?
[08:31:05:PM] mapkeyDX: well, that comes from the next question, "if all you have to go by is conscious experience, how could you verify that you're really out?"
[08:31:22:PM] mapkeyDX: look over many suggestions, and watch them fail.....
[08:31:42:PM] mapkeyDX: smash the computer making the simulation, the smashing could be part of the simulation
[08:31:55:PM] mapkeyDX: so that wouldn't let you out
[08:32:01:PM] mapkeyDX: ( just saying someone suggested that )
[08:32:11:PM] mapkeyDX: anyhow, suicide seems hopeful.......
[08:32:21:PM] mapkeyDX: so, suppose you kill yourself:
[08:32:47:PM] mapkeyDX: scenario 1: suppose after death, there is nothing. complete void. not more conscious experience
[08:33:15:PM] mapkeyDX: you may be free, however, you didn't verify that you are, because you aren't around to verify!!!
[08:34:10:PM] mapkeyDX: btw, the fact of the story, which we are told and are taking as truth, because it's a given, a part of the story, is that we is in fact out, but doubts it
[08:34:21:PM] mapkeyDX: otherwise this rambling here makes no sense
[08:34:23:PM] mapkeyDX: so......
[08:34:25:PM] mapkeyDX: anyway.......
[08:34:28:PM] mapkeyDX: scenario 2:
[08:35:07:PM] mapkeyDX: kill yourself, and after death, you go to heaven... the way he put it was "suppose you're at the gates with saint peter and bill and ted waiting to get in".... heh...
[08:35:22:PM] mapkeyDX: how do you know what this is not simulation?
[08:35:23:PM] mapkeyDX: you don't
[08:35:33:PM] mapkeyDX: because it is also being verified by conscious experience
[08:35:52:PM] mapkeyDX: scenario 3: you try to kill yourself, but it doesn't work
[08:36:22:PM] mapkeyDX: you're just badly injured. next conscious experience: on a stretcher with nurses/doctors all around trying to save you
[08:36:42:PM] mapkeyDX: how do you know that THIS is not simulation? you don't
[08:36:46:PM] mapkeyDX: so the point is......
[08:36:59:PM] mapkeyDX: there seems to be know way to verify that you're ever out of the simulation
[08:37:02:PM] mapkeyDX: even suicide
[08:37:15:PM] AgentIlluminati: hmmm
[08:39:02:PM] mapkeyDX: so, we were talking about that, the the matrix, leading into idealism
[08:39:26:PM] mapkeyDX: do you know what I mean by idealism?
[08:39:35:PM] AgentIlluminati: awesome
[08:39:48:PM] AgentIlluminati: uhhh
[08:40:35:PM] mapkeyDX: (Philos.) The system or theory that denies the existence of material bodies, and teaches that we have no rational grounds to believe in the reality of anything but ideas and their relations.
[08:40:39:PM] mapkeyDX: (Link: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=idealism)http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=idealism
[08:40:51:PM] mapkeyDX: like buddhists beleive
[08:40:54:PM] mapkeyDX: and such
[08:41:17:PM] AgentIlluminati: cool
[08:42:02:PM] mapkeyDX: in the time remaining he was telling us a little bit about someone's argument for idealism
[08:42:30:PM] mapkeyDX: well, first, consider this system ( a differ person with diffferent idea )    I think it was locke:
[08:42:54:PM] mapkeyDX: all things have primary properties and secondary properties
[08:43:07:PM] mapkeyDX: primary properties are things such as shape, motion
[08:43:40:PM] mapkeyDX: primary properties are real things that exist out in the world separate from our perception
[08:44:01:PM] mapkeyDX: secondary properties are things like, color, sound
[08:44:09:PM] mapkeyDX: and.....
[08:44:25:PM] mapkeyDX: secondary properties are the 'result' of primary properties
[08:44:36:PM] mapkeyDX: but, they don't "exist" in the world. only in our mind
[08:45:05:PM] mapkeyDX: for example, there's no sound only "air going like this  *flaps arms funnily*" that's how my teacher explained it. he's awesome ^^
[08:45:16:PM] mapkeyDX: same with color
[08:45:39:PM] AgentIlluminati: damn, i wanna take philosophy now
[08:45:59:PM] mapkeyDX: and there's also no color, except in our minds
[08:46:28:PM] mapkeyDX: there's light and photons, and they make us see color, but they are not color
[08:46:39:PM] mapkeyDX: nor does it make sense to say they "have color"
[08:46:49:PM] mapkeyDX: because the color is something in our mind
[08:47:02:PM] mapkeyDX: anyway, those are secondary properties
[08:47:24:PM] mapkeyDX: well, this other guy comes along, and says, that there's ONLY secondary properties
[08:47:56:PM] mapkeyDX: he gives the example of a lukewarm pail of water
[08:48:21:PM] mapkeyDX: suppose it's a cold day, you put your hand outside, and keep on inside. next to you you have a lukewarm pail of water
[08:48:31:PM] mapkeyDX: now, put both hands into the water
[08:48:40:PM] mapkeyDX: one hand will be hot, the other will be lukewarm
[08:49:02:PM] mapkeyDX: how can you attribute the properity of temperature to the water.....?
[08:49:09:PM] mapkeyDX: because if you did so, 
[08:49:20:PM] mapkeyDX: you'd have to say that it's both hot and cool at the same time!!
[08:49:34:PM] AgentIlluminati: hmm
[08:50:10:PM] mapkeyDX: he's gonna elaborate more later... one more lecture... but that was one example this one philosopher made
[08:50:26:PM] mapkeyDX: there was a further pail example
[08:50:34:PM] mapkeyDX: or, rather, a pot of water on a stove
[08:51:02:PM] mapkeyDX: suppose you have a pot of water on a stove. it's room temperature, I dunno, whatever temp you'd expect water to be when it just sits around in the open
[08:51:15:PM] mapkeyDX: put your hand in it, turn the stove on
[08:51:29:PM] mapkeyDX: leave your hand in while it heats
[08:51:41:PM] mapkeyDX: while it does, you'll feel increasing heat
[08:52:06:PM] mapkeyDX: until FINALLY you STOP FEELING HEAT.. and feel pain... you don't feel the heat and the pain at the same time, just the pain
[08:52:15:PM] mapkeyDX: now,
[08:52:28:PM] mapkeyDX: who would attribute the property of pain to water?